Note: Part I of this essay covered the theory of
building a game library. Here (Part II) I’ll get into the practice, the nuts
and bolts of how I find and buy the games I want to play (or play someday).
This came out on the long side, so feel free to skip the fluff at the beginning
and scroll down to the meat and potatoes.
The Australian
dollar has not budged either way much from around US$0.67 exchange value in nearly
a decade. This makes Australia a competitive player you’re shipping wheat,
wool, iron ore or uranium overseas, but is a sad state if you’re buying things
from Europe or North America. Game that
sells for US$50.00 or €45.00 in their home market will cost A$75.00 on a good day,
and then you have to factor in shipping, which saw a steep cost increase in 2019
after a new Universal Postal Union (UPU) agreed to a new schedule of remittance
for the mail of packages (anything not a letter). The graduating rollout of the
new schedule is due for completion in 2025. No, it’s not your imagination, but
it’s not all retailer-padding ether; shipping is definitely getting more
expensive.
But I’m
not telling you anything you don’t already know – and no doubt a similar
situation exists all round the south Asian community (a shout-out to all my friends in Singapore, Hong Kong and the Philippines) – but I’m also not here to
give a lecture in international finance. This post is the second part of an
extended consideration of how I’ve gone about building a wargame collection in
the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. It’s a story of obsession, obstinacy
and dogged determination, but mostly it’s the story of a someone who will go to
extraordinary lengths to save a few bucks.
I had envisaged
a more orderly representation of the details here, maybe a chart with
checkboxes, pros-and-cons, that kind of thing. It didn’t take long to devolve
into a brain-dump of best practices and red flags when ordering or buying a
game. The below should broadly cover everything I’ve learned about the
practicalities of buying games from overseas. I have a peculiarly Australian take
on things, but a lot of it should apply to other Pacific Rim countries as well.
Most people will be familiar with at least
some of what I’ll cover here, while some might be new to you. It’s all born of
long experience. I’ve been lucky, in that most of my experiences have been on
the positive side, with some being exceptionally good. I always try to be
positive on this blog, but I’ll add any Red Zones as they come up when you
should be cautious or prudent.
Research and Acquisition
As I mentioned
in Part I, I trained and worked as a librarian and ad hoc researcher. Every library
struggles with the tension between what resources it requires and the hard
boundaries of its collection development budget. It can never afford everything
it wants or needs, and often one area will have to go short to allow the
enrichment of another. The environment encourages frugality
and an inquisitive spirit, finding required materials, and weighing up the
value of each item in terms of its cost and its worth to the collection as a
whole. This is
how I approach my own wargame collection development.
The
below comments represent practical lessons learnt through purchasing games in
Australia locally and from overseas retailers and publishers. I wrote about how
I choose the games I want to buy in Part I. Part II is kind of a list of best
practices for buying wargames on a budget. If there is any interest in such, I
could follow up with some more detailed case studies in a third part, though I
think the reader will have had enough of the subject if they make it through
this lot.
Purchasing channels and the question of shipping
There
are three general channels to buy games these days; from the publisher, either
as a pre-order or direct purchase; from a retailer, be it your friendly local
game store (FLGS), a big overseas retailer like Noble Knight Games, or eBay;
or through crowdfunding (Kickstarter, Gamefound, Backerkit,
and others). What follows ae some comments on my own experience buying games through
all of these channels.
The
reality of Antipodean life is this: when you consider purchasing from abroad
(this goes for books, hard-format music or movies, clothes, whatever), you must
take the aforementioned shipping into account. Some channels (e.g., some eBay
sellers) will build the shipping into their overall price, but most will have
some added cost to deal with. The best sellers will be up-front about the
shipping cost; Noble Knight Games and Miniature Market both have a shipping calculator
to offer options for faster or more economical shipping (I’ll come back to
these two later).
Ultimately,
the question comes down to whether you think that a given game is worth the
asking price plus the extra cost to get it to you. I try to be sensible
spending money on games, but the amount I’ve spent on the three most expensive
(for me) games I’ve ever bought could have paid for my next eight P500
pre-orders. The thing is, I don’t regret any of those purchases, and I’ve
really enjoyed playing – and, if I’m honest, owning – them (to be honest, I
haven’t even got to punching the most recent one, the other two were second-hand
and long out of print).
Whatever
you decide to pay for a game you decide you really want is probably going to be
the right answer at the time, so long as you’re not putting yourself in hock to
do it. At the other end of the spectrum, try not to fall into the trap of
buying things simply because the price is right.
Crowdfunding
I have
a long and storied history with Kickstarter. Everyone should by now have an
idea of how crowdfunding works (leave a comment here or message me on FB if you
really don’t know how it works and you’d like a view from the parapet), so I’ll
just talk about my engagement with it and how it works for me.
People
talk about how unreliable crowdfunding is for project delivery. I’ve heard some
horror stories, and I have a few myself, but since 2011 I’ve backed over 400
campaigns (don’t get too excited, most of these were for little RPG projects in
the $10-$15 range). Of those, about half a dozen project leaders just ghosted
everyone and ran away with the cash, or they didn’t budget properly and ran out
of cash before they could complete the project. In one celebrated case leading
to a class action, a noted RPG designer announced a second edition of his
acclaimed and nearly impossible to find situation-specific role-playing game,
garnered a not inconsiderable war-chest for the project, then soon after the
campaign ended, he allegedly joined a cult and gave all the proceeds of the
project (around $60,000) to his new personal messiah.
This happens
a lot less often than you it would seem the way people talk about it, but it
does happen. But we’re interested in wargames here, and that seems to be a
special case. I’m sure there must be instances where somebody hasn’t come
through with the promised rewards, although nearly every single one experiences
some level of delay from the envisioned fulfillment date, usually three months
to a year. If you back a crowdfunding project, don’t get bent out of shape when
this happens. Don’t be that guy.
Having
said this, a number of wargame publishers use crowdfunding as a primary or
secondary channel for connecting customers with their products. The Deitz Foundation, Worthington Publishing, Flying Pig Games, and Shakos
all launch their new products (or in Worthington’s case, many of them) on Kickstarter
exclusively, only offering pre-orders on their websites when the games are at
the printer, while Compass Games offers short KS campaigns a month or
two before their games are due to arrive
in the warehouse as last mile opportunities for folks who didn’t pre-order on
the website. All of these companies and a bunch of others have a proven track
record delivering on their KS campaigns.
I’m concentrating on Kickstarter because it’s the biggest player in the crowdfunding space and the one I have the most personal experience with. If a project creator has a couple of campaigns under their belt, I’d be 98% confident of fulfilling the one they are running now. I have a lot of faith in the crowdfunding process, but I also do my due diligence with a campaign, and you should too.
Buy direct: Publishers I’ve dealt with (in no particular
order)
GMT Games. GMT are the most up-front regarding production, billing and
shipping. Their P500 model of production and pre-ordering is arguably best
practice in a wildly varying industry. They don’t always get it right, but I
received my first P500 preorder in 2017 (Holland ’44: Operation MarketGarden (GMT Games, 2017), before the big shipping changes in 2019 and COVID-related
shipping issues in 2020) and I still order like this when practicable.
Ordering
a game via the P500 process means you get it as a third off the MSRP. This may
not always be the cheapest way to get a copy of the game, but in my experience
it’s usually at least 10%-15% cheaper (even after factoring in the cost of
shipping) than what you’ll pay for the same game when it reaches Australian
retailers (in about nine to twelve months, when their stock finally arrives).
I
mentioned in my Fall Sale Booty humblebrag post that GMT has a page on their
website breaking down the domestic and overseas shipping costs. I extracted the
parts relevant to me (or anyone else shipping to the Pacific Rim – New Zealand,
Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.) and made my own table. These are valid at time of
writing.
GMT's Pacific Rim shipping prices (current at time of publication). |
I would never pay for Priority Air Postal (which I assume is USPS). I’m as impatient as the next consumer, but I couldn’t justify double the shipping cost to get a parcel literally (and only probably) a few days earlier. The longest a package from GMT has taken with UPS was about sixteen days, maybe seventeen, and that was while some parts of Australia were still in lockdown. The most recent delivery (the Fall Sale purchases) arrived in just six days.
I don’t
always follow through with my preorders from GMT. New releases come in batches
of usually three to five titles. If I only ordered one game out of those being
released that month, I’ll cancel my order, and here’s why. The minimum Pacific
Rim shipping charge is US$53.00. This sounds like a lot because it is a lot if
you’re only getting one game. The $53.00 shipping covers the first 12lbs of
stuff. I can justify the shipping expense to myself if I’m getting two or more
games – two games will bring it down to $26.50 per game; three games, under
$18.00 each. The sweet spot – the best cost to weight ratio – is 18lbs for $72.00,
but that’s a lot of game (or a lot of games).
The only
other thing I’d mention is, if your order comes to an odd number of pounds in
weight, make up the difference if you can afford to by adding a 3” box to house
your magazine games or a bundle of counter trays. This won’t be an option of P500
deliveries (unless you place your order in the two weeks or so between the initial
billing of the games and the beginning of shipping, so you can benefit from the
p500 price). As you’ll see from the schedule, shipping cost goes up in 2lbs
increments, so you may as well get your money’s worth since you’ve already paid
for that extra pound.
The lesson
here is, don’t order a single game. I’m in the fortunate situation that when a new
Commands and Colors expansion comes out, I will have ordered a second copy
already for my brother-in-law. Or a friend might ask me to order something for
them if I’m already getting a shipment. This can also help assuage the shipping
costs (when it comes off).
GMT is possibly
the least opaque wargame publishers, with a monthly newsletter covering
a broad swarth of stuff about the company and adjacent activities like
conventions, and this is where you’ll find out which games are being released
next and roughly how far away others are in the queue. The newsletter is long,
but always worth the time it takes to read. And this is where you’ll hear first
about their annual sale.
Worthington Publishing. Worthington make interesting, fast-playing
games that are easy to teach and understand. Not everything the company
produces is in my wheelhouse, but there’s enough there to be of interest, and
again, I have experienced nothing less than excellent service from the company.
Worthington games aren’t exactly cheap, but their production values are
exceptional and for my money, they’re worth it.
These
days Worthington mostly put new releases as Kickstarter campaigns, presumably so
they have some working capital to offset the cost of publication, but this
means the games are usually ready to roll, apart form some last-mile production
issues. The time between campaign closure and release has narrowed considerably
in the last few years, with the biggest issue being the vagaries of
international shipping out of China.
Most of
the Worthington games I own have been either Kickstarter campaigns I’ve backed
(most recently Drop Zone: Southern France (Worthington Games, ~2025),
which I’ve been anticipating for an inordinate number of years), or games that
I’ve bought from retailers because I really should have backed the KS campaign
in the first place.
Worthington
has a sale once or twice a year, but you need to be on their mailing list
to hear about it directly. This is the best time to buy; discounts vary, but
they usually run from 8% to 12% off the sticker price of everything except
preorders and the very latest releases. The last time I bought directly from
the publisher, shipping to Australia cost about US$45.00 for one or two games,
or around $75.00 for three games and up. Again, don’t buy a single game. If you’re
paying for shipping already, make the shipping work for you.
Compass Games. Compass Games is one of the most prolific wargame
publishers in the world, releasing twenty or more games each year, most years,
as well as producing a very well-respected quarterly game magazine, Paper Wars
(which still includes a game in each issue), I haven’t shown Compass enough
love in this blog. Bill Thomas gets a lot of flak from people about the
inevitable errata in his games (I’ve been guilty of that myself, at
least partly in jest, but in my defence, it seemed like a lot of errata because
my copy of Imperial Tide (Compass Games, 2022) contained two duplicate copies).
Compass
has multiple sales channels; they take pre-orders on games (I’ve never done
this, but I believe they’ll email you a week or so ahead of charging). Like
GMT, are a big enough operation to carry the cost of production, and only
charge when the game is in the country, if not landed at the warehouse. Ahead
of release, Compass will also run a short Kickstarter campaign (12-14 days) to
allow people to order the game knowing the campaign will be fulfilled within
about six or eight weeks of closing/charging. The beauty of this – especially for
overseas buyers – is the campaign will include thematically related add-on games.
Compass charges US$57.00 to Australia for one or two games. If the Kickstarter
for the game you want offers another game you’d like as an add-on, this might
be worth doing.
The other
option is Compass’s annual sale, which usually starts around October and runs
into the following January or so. The most recently released games won’t be
discounted or may have a few dollars shaved off the top, but some of the older
games can drop as much as 40%. This is how I’ve bought directly form the
company in the past, during their sale. As I mentioned, one to two titles will
cost $57.00 (unless shipping has gone up in the last seven or eight months). I
say titles; if you buy two issues of Paper Wars, it’s still going to cost you
the same in shipping as if you bought two boxed games, If you’re after
magazines, you might be better served going through a retailer.
Again, Compass has a mailing list you can get on to. This will keep you up to date on the latest releases and which games are receiving the Kickstarter treatment. Emails come out fortnightly, I think, so it’s not too much congestion for your inbox. Bill and the team also have a YouTube channel with unboxings, designer interviews, and a fortnightly one-hour interactive overview of all the latest news on printing and shipping.
Legion Wargames. Legion Wargames are probably most famous the perenial solitaire favourites, Target for Today (Legion Wargames, 2017) and Target for Tonight (Legion Wargames, 2020), but they have a strong line in
wargames dealing with less frequently gamed subjects, (e.g., the First Indochina
War (the French War), the Boer War, and Canada’s Northwestern Rebellion, to
name a few). Legion has a preorder system called CPO 250. Customers can place
an “expression of interest” in a game on the pre-order list, and when it’s
available, they are notified and given a code to get the game at the preorder
price. The games are usually some way along in the development before they’re
placed on the CPO list, and when the preorders get up around 250, the game is
nudged into the production line-up.
Legion
is a small outfit, producing about five or six games a year. It’s a family
business and everything is handled by the owners, including shipping. Most of
the Legion games I own, I’ve bought directly. There are no shipping discounts so
far as I can tell, but a single game will cost you between US$24.00 and $36.00
to ship, depending on weight, which is pretty fair (it’s nice to not have to
find a second title to add to the order). Legion also has a mailing list
to which you can subscribe. I don’t think I’ve ever had more than three or four
emails from the company in a calendar year, so not much inbox clutter here.
Flying Pig Games. Outside of the US, you can only get Flying
Pig Games publications directly through their Kickstarter campaigns. Like
Legion, they’re a small publisher, and it’s just too hard for them to deliver
internationally (if you’ve seen the size of their games you’ll understand why).
They are usually available through the usual retailers but tend to sell out quickly.
I was
an early supporter of Flying Pig, starting with the first edition Old School
Tactical, Volume 1. For a while they had to drop overseas shipping all
together, which meant I couldn’t get in on the second printing of A Most Fearful Sacrifice: The Three Days of Gettysburg (Flying Pig Games, 2022),
but now they have a distributor deal in place and you can once again get in on
the action from far shores (I was able to secure a copy of AMFS from the third
printing – an unboxing post and game reports will be forthcoming, I promise).
It won’t be cheap – my copy of AMFS cost about US$70.00 in shipping, forgivingly
charged after the campaign closed, pushing No Retreat! Italian Front
(GMT Games, 2015) for the most expensive game I’ve ever bought. To me, though,
it was worth it.
Flying Pig
has a YouTube channel where you can find a monthly update as well as
product unboxings and other goodness. And, of course, if you have backed one of
their Kickstarter campaigns, you’ll be notified through your KS account when a
new one is coming up.
Hexasim. French publisher Hexasim also operates as an online store
for a host of other wargame publishers. I have bought games from the company
several times now, both their own publications and some American games. Hexasim
generally charge regular retail prices for all the games they stock but will
often offer seemingly random specials on individual titles, as well as
discounts on stock bruised in transit. Their website defaults to the French
display but has an English-language version available at the click of a button.
I’ve frequently found Hexasim will still have one or two copies of a game
that’s listed as out-of-stock with the publisher and the other regular retail
options.
One
thing you have to bear in mind dealing with EU publishers and retailers is the
exchange rate. The prices are in Euros, which lose a little more again in the
exchange rate; if a dollar US translates around $1.50 Australian (as it has for
about the last seven or eight years), it will probably equate to about A$1.70
to the Euro. (This is where an exchange calculator is handy. I use xe.com;
it’s free and accurate.) Having said that, Shipping is fairly reasonable from
Hexasim if you’re buying multiple items – the first game will cost you €30.00 to ship to Australia, but the second and third
will only add €1.00 each to that cost (I’ve never tested this above three titles).
It can take a couple of days or a week for purchases to leave the warehouse,
but the transit is usually only a couple of weeks, and everything I’ve ordered from
them has arrived in excellent condition.
I’ve
kept this to companies I’ve personally dealt with directly. A lot of game
companies have good reputations for customer service. At the end of the day,
they are each running a business, and it doesn’t pay to alienate an existing
customer. I can’t speak to the shipping policies of anyone else because I haven’t
personally dealt with them. If you’re thinking about ordering directly form a
company, drop them an email and ask about their shipping policies (some
companies may not sip outside of a certain jurisdiction, like the Continental
United States or the EU; in this case, they’ll usually be able to put you in touch
with a retailer that will ship).
Recommended retailers. Australia and abroad
Here in
Australia, there are a handful of retailers who stock some titles from some
bigger-name publishers (usually Compass and GMT). Osprey Games gets a solid
look-in, unusually in bookstores like The Nile (this is, oddly, also true
of Ares Games, which happen to be the Australian distributor for Nuts! Publishing titles - I scored my copy of We Are Coming, Ninevah! from the Nile).
Even the stalwart Victorian store MilSims has its constraints (having
said that, Milsims is my go-to store in Australia for wargames; Mitch and the
crew offer exceptional customer service, and they make the most effort of
anyone I’ve seen to stock a good assortment of wargames). For a better range of
games, you’ll have to look further afield. For international shopping, there are
two US retailers I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend; Noble Knight Games in
Wisconsin, and Miniature Market in California.
Noble Knight
has probably taken more of my money since about 2006 than any other retailer
beside Woolworths. Before concentrating on wargames, I bought a lot of RPG
materials. The shipping rates have by necessity gone up quite a lot in the last
couple of years, and they are not quite as competitive as they were in the
past, but you can find almost anything you’re likely to want to play at this
store. Again, it’s well worth getting on the mailing list for Noble Knight (if
you go to the home page via the link above, a pop-up should appear in ten or so
seconds offering the chance to sign up).
The Noble
Knight website has a couple of things going for it. If you’re logged into the
website, you can take advantage of their Wish List facility, which lets you
keep a record of games you’re interested in or would like to get (if they’re out
of stock). If the store receives a copy of a game on your list, you
automatically get an email to say its there So will everyone else who has it on
their wish-list, so if it’s gone by the time you click on the link, they’re not
yanking your chain – it was just really popular). The webstore will also show the
prices of their stock in Australian dollars (or Canadian dollars, Pounds
Stirling, or Euros if that floats your boat). You can set it to present in an
alternative currency in your profile.
The
other thing is, if you pop an item into your cart, you can check the shipping
cost before initiating the purchase. For international customers, NK will
usually offer four or five shipping services, starting with the cheapest. Noble
Knight (usually) have competitive prices, and while the shipping cost can
sometimes be a let-down, but it’s always a good place to start a search for a
game, if only to get a baseline cost to work from.
The
other store I’d recommend is more of a notable mention. Miniature Market
doesn’t have the wargame coverage of Noble Knight, but I’ve found some real
bargains here form time to time. And somehow they (usually) manage to keep the overseas
shipping costs down (to rapacious, one rank below extortionate).
I managed to get their last mounted board for Normandy ’44 (GMT Games,
2010), for about US$35.00, shipping included (this was before the release of the
current reprint with the mounted board and three-inch box combo), which seemed
very reasonable to me. And there it is again. I can’t stress enough, that you
have to establish for yourself what is a reasonable cost to you, pretty much
every time you order from overseas.
Another
way to do it is to avoid the shipping altogether. Noble Knight has had two
special promotions in the last twelve months offering free shipping for orders over
A$400.00 (about US$270.00). It’s a lot to throw down in a single transaction, but
that will buy you four or six (or more) games, arriving in probably around five
or six weeks (the longest I’ve ever had to wait for a delivery from Noble Kight
is about eight weeks, and I think there was a port strike involved). Alternatively,
if you happen to have a relative who travels to the states often and doesn’t mind
being a mule to support your hobby, Noble Knight will ship to hotel addresses,
and offer free shipping within the United States for orders over US$150.00
(about A$230.00).
This was a purchase from The War Library. Unpunched and intact, a little scuffing consistent with age, and at a reasonable price (You can see it in it's unboxed glory here). |
There’s one more retailer I want to mention, specifically for the Australian audience. The War Library started off as a garage sale off-shoot of the minis-focused War and Peace Games in Canberra, selling spare parts sprues and books on military history. These days they also sell an eclectic rage of boardgames – wargames, mostly – from trades and deceased estates. Nearly all their games carry fair prices, and while they are all technically second-hand, I’ve bought a number of them unpunched. The best part is their shipping, which is a flat rate $10.00. Their books are also worth a go-over.
The auction site that dare not speak its name
The P2P
selling platform, eBay, isn’t what it used to be. These days it’s filled with SME
stores and enterprising backyard importers. But sometimes you can find a Joe-Public
seller with something they’re looking to part with, and at a fair price. As a
rule, wargamers are a careful lot, and if a game is being sold by the person
who previously owned it, you can usually count on the game being intact.
Some
reputable dealers who sell via eBay. Noble Knight lists a lot of their
inventory here, although you’re better off purchasing directly from their website
as the eBay prices and shipping both tend to be a little higher. Entertainment
seller Ravewaves often have wargames (RPGs and computer games are more
in their wheelhouse), and often at competitive prices, with free shipping. The cost
may sometimes go up between the list search and the item page for Australian
viewers; that’s the GST being built into the price. Shipping usually takes
about three weeks, but the product is always very well-packed and, like I said,
shipping is already built into the price.
The
other benefits with eBay are the option to set up search alerts which will inform
you when a product you’re looking for becomes available (this beats trawling through dozens of pages of listings), and the split payment
option. This is something I use often, especially in the case of something more
expensive, or multiple purchases from a single supplier. I use Afterpay, but
there are other services available. PayPal has a Pay-in-4 option now. I try to avoid
using PayPal where I can for overseas transactions. Not only does the company
charge the seller a seemingly ever-increasing percentage of the payment, but
their currency exchange calculations are always three or four cents lower than
the current exchange rate, so they profit from both ends of the transaction
(which feels like double-dipping; PayPal has the option to offer on their own
terms, and the customer has the option not to engage with it).
Special interest groups
I shouldn’t
really have to mention this to anyone here but buy/sell groups on Facebook can
be a good place to find wargames. It seems like most state capitals at lease
have a wargame discussion group on FB, and many will allow queries form individuals
regarding the sale of games. You see ess wargames on the general boardgame
groups like Australian Tabletop Game Sale & Trade or Australian Board Game Traders (you'll have to be loggeed into FB to use these links), but they appear occasionally, and if there’s something you’re
looking for in particular, there’s no harm in posting a query to the group.
Some groups
can be disappointing. Many FB groups declaring “Wargames” in the title are dedicated
to miniatures games like Warhammer or 40K. Everyone thinks wargames
means only the kind of games they play (similarly, I’m always disappointed when an
article about RPGs turns out to be exclusively about computer games). Just back
out slowly and don’t make eye contact.
Final thoughts
If you’ve
made it this far, I hope it hasn’t been a complete waste of time, and that you’ve
found some of it useful. I apologise for the meandering course this post has
taken. It’s easily the longest piece I’ve written for A Fast Game, but
generally it’s something I’m passionate about, and not (just) out off selfish
motivations. More games sold means better returns for publishers in the long
run, which means a higher likelihood of publishers surviving to produce more
games.
I also
enjoy the thrill of the hunt. When I learn of a game that sounds promising, I
look at the ratings on BGG and read the comments. I check out thoughtful reviews
and read designer interviews. As a result, I don’t think I’ve been disappointed
with a game I’ve bought in some time. Not needing to care about money is the
quickest way to a solid game collection, but patience, diligence, and using the
tools available will get you there.
The road (to Moscow) not taken: Compass Games' Reprint of The Russian Campaign (Jedko Games, 1974). |
One
more thing. This is something it took a long time for me to assimilate, but it’s
a valuable lesson. You don’t need all the games. Not if you’re a player
(maybe you do if you’re a collector). I try not to double up on games I know
someone among my circle of gaming friends already owns. I have had to remind
myself that it I have The Russian Campaign, Deluxe Fifth Edition (GMT
Games, 2023), I really don’t need to own the Compass Games reprint of
the original Jedko release of the same game (Jedko Games, 1974; Compass Games,
2022). There are two wolves inside me, and one of them is a Completist.
Another great blog on the local down under perspective of war game buying and collecting.
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